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>> I KNEW THESE MEN LIVED IN TUSH LENT TIMES.

I DIDN'T QUITE REALIZE THE TIME WOULD BE SO TURBULENT.

I DIDN'T QUITE REALIZE THE TIME WOULD BE SO TURBULENT.

>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK, LEADERSHIP IN TURBULENT TIMES.

THAT'S THE TITLE OF DORIS KEARNS-GOODWIN'S NEW BOOK.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'RE ESPECIALLY THRILLED TO HAVE YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE AN HISTORIAN OF GREAT NOTE AND YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT ABOUT LEADERSHIP SO PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT IT.

>> WELL, IT'S CALLED LEADERSHIP IN TURBULENT TIMES WHICH MAY MAKE IT SEEM LIKE IT'S ABOUT TODAY.

AND IN SOME WAYS, IT IS, EVEN THOUGH PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NEVER MENTIONED BECAUSE WHAT I'VE DONE IS TAKE FOUR OF MY GUYS, THE ONES I FELT CLOSEST TOO, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE ROOSEVELTS, AND LYNDON JOHNSON AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY SHARED.

THEY ALL SHARED THEMSELVES IN TURBULENT TIMES.

PEOPLE ALWAYS ASK ME ARE THESE THE WORST OF TIMES?

AND YOU LOOK AT LINCOLN COMING INTO OFFICE AND THE COUNTRY IS SPLIT IN TWO AND HE SAID IF HE'D EVER KNOWN WHAT THE FIRST SIX MONTHS IN OFFICE WOULD BE LIKE HE WOULD NOT HAVE THOUGHT HE COULD LIVE THROUGH IT.

ROOSEVELT ENCOUNTERED THE FAR MORE TURBULENT WITH THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.

THERE WAS A LOT OF TURMOIL IN THE ECONOMY AND SOCIETY BECAUSE THERE WERE SUDDEN GAPS BETWEEN THE RICH AND POOR.

IMMIGRANTS COMING FROM ABROAD.

INVENTIONS SHAKING UP LIFE.

THE TELEPHONE, TELEGRAPH.

PEOPLE FELT LIKE THE OLD AMERICA DIDN'T FEEL THE SAME ANYMORE.

AND THERE WAS A WORRY ABOUT CAPITALISM.

PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING HUGE VIOLENT STRIKES AND THEN OF COURSE FDR COMES IN AT THE HEIGHT OF THE DEPRESSION AND PEOPLE WAND THE STREETS, DEPOSITS TAKEN OUT OF THE BANK.

AND HE WORRIES COMING INTO OFFICE.

AND L.B.C.

COMES IN WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF J.F.K., CIVIL RIGHTS STUCK IN THE CONGRESS.

SO ALL THESE PEOPLE GOT THROUGH THESE TIMES AND THEY WERE ABLE TO UNIFY THE COUNTRY AND LEAVE US STRONGER THAN BEFORE.

I JUST THINK IT'S ANT IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT, THAT HISTORY CAN BE REASSURING BECAUSE SOME OF US FEEL WE'RE NEVER GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS TIME.

THIS UNPRECEDENTED, UNCIVIL, POLARIZE TIME.

THROUGH LEADERSHIP AND CITIZEN ACTION, THEY CAME THROUGH.

>> ALL RIGHT.

AND OF COURSE BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT YET, YOU FOCUS ON FOUR MEN.

BUT I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT THEIR WIVES AND SOME OF THE IMPORTANT WOMEN IN THEIR LIVES AND ALSO ABOUT WOMENS LEADERSHIP AS WELL.

BUT YOU MAKE THE POINT IN THE BOOK THAT THESE FOUR GUYS WERE SHAPED BY AND BUILT UP THE CHARACTER OF STATESMEN BY CRISES.

HARDSHIP.

IS THAT THE ONLY WAY TO BECOME P MATERIAL FOR GREAT LEADERSHIP?

>> WELL, IT SEEMS THAT WHEN A PERSON GOES THROUGH ADVERSITY, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE AS HARROWING AS THESE PEOPLES' ADVERSITY.

LINCOLN SUFFERED A BLOW THAT SO THREW HIM HIS FRIENDS WORRIED THAT THEY HAD TO TAKE ALL THE KNIFES FROM HIS ROOM THAT HE WAS IN SUCH A DEPRESSION.

TEDDY ROOSEVELT LEFT LOST HIS WIFE AND MOTHER ON THE SAME DAY.

FDR HAS POLIO.

AND L.B.J.

HAD A MASSIVE HEART ATTACK.

THE POINT IS IF YOU'VE GONE THROUGH HARDSHIP AND LEARNED HOW TO COPE WITH IT, IF A PERSON HAS RESILIENCE, THEN THAT RESILIENCE I THINK IS A CRITICAL LEADERSHIP TRAIT AND YOU COME OUT WISER, STRONGER, HEMINGWAY SAID EVERYONE IS BROKENLY LIFE BUT AFTERWARDS, SOME PEOPLE ARE STRONGER IN THE BROKEN PLACES AND I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE.

>> LINCOLN, YOU MENTIONED THAT HE WAS BROKENLY A CIRCUMSTANCE IN HIS LIFE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I READ A BOOK ABOUT HIM AND HIS SO-CALLED DEPRESSION, I ALWAYS FIGURED IF ANYTHING IT WAS DEALING WITH DEPRESSION THAT BUILT HIS CHARACTER.

>> HE WAS BORN, I THINK, WITH AN MELANCHOLY TEMPERMENT.

YOU'RE EITHER OPTIMISTIC OR MELANCHOLY BUT THEN EVENTS CAN SHAPE IT AND FOR A WHILE IT WAS BEING SHAPED BY UPWARD SUCCESS.

HE RAN FOR OFFICE WHEN HE WAS 23 YEARS OLD.

HE DID NOT WIN BUT THEN HE WON THE NEXT TIME.

HE DID NOT WIN BUT THEN HE WON THE NEXT TIME.

HE FELT SO BAD FOR HER BECAUSE HE HUMILIATED HER AND FELT HIS AMBITIONS WERE THWARTED.

HE WAS ABLE EVEN ABLE TO COME OUT OF THAT DEEP DEPRESSION TO FUNCTION AND ALWAYS SEE FUNCTION THROUGH HUMOR.

HE SAID HUMOR FOR HIM WAS LIKE A DROP OF WHISKEY.

HE ALSO UNDERSTOOD THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING AROUND PEOPLE WHEN HE WAS SAD AND LONELY SO IN A CERTAIN SENSE-SOOTHED HIMSELF AND WAS COMPLETELY FUNCTIONING DURING THE CIVIL WAR.

HE WAS THE ONE THAT GAVE SPIRIT AND HOPE TO ALL THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM SO IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION, THIS WHOLE MELANCHOLY AND DEPRESSION.

>> TODD WAS BECAUSE OF HER STRONG AREA ONE MIGHT SAY STRANGE CHARACTER, SHE WAS PROBABLY THE MOST DIFFICULT OF THE WIVES YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK.

FOR ANY OF THESE MEN.

WAS SHE A LEADER AND DID SHE HELP BUILD HIS CHARACTER?

>> I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION SHE HELPED.

WE KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT HER EARLY RELATIONSHIP WITH LINCOLN BECAUSE LATER IT BECOMES MORE COMPLICATED BUT -- THAT WAS LINCOLN'S IDOL, HENRY CLAY.

HER FATHER WAS A POLITICIAN.

HE WAS WEALTHY.

SHE WAS EDGE KATED.

MUCH -- EDUCATED.

SHE LOVED POETRY AND POLITICS AND SHE BELIEVED IN HIS DESTINY.

THOSE EARLY YEARS WHEN HE WOULD RUN AND LOSE, SHE NEVER LOST FAITH THAT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO BE SOMETHING SO THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR HIS LEADERSHIP.

THERE'S A FUNNY STORY WHEN THEY FIRST MET IN HER SISTER'S HOUSE WHO WAS MARRIED TO THE GOVERNOR OF ILLINOIS, HE SAID TO HER, MARY, I WOULD LOVE TO DANCE WITH YOU IN THE VERY WORST WAY AND SHE SAID AFTER THAT, WELL, SHE SURELY DID.

YOU CAN'T IMAGINE HIM AS A GRACEFUL DANCER.

>> EXACTLY.

HE WAS SO TALL.

>> WHEN SHE BECAME FIRST LADY, IT WAS A DIFFICULT SITUATION.

BROTHERS WERE IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY.

SHE WAS A WESTERNER INSTEAD OF AN EASTERNER.

OVERSPENT HER APPROPRIATIONS TRYING TO MAKE THE HOUSE LOOK GOOD WHICH JACKIE KENNEDY DID LATER TO GREAT ACCLAIM BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, THEIR SON DIED AND SHE NEVER GOT OVER THE DEPRESSION OF THAT SON DYING.

SO- HARDER.

HE HAD TO BE FATHER AND MOTHER TO TAD.

>> MOVING ALONG TO THEODORE ROOSEVELT.

HIS FIRST WIFE DIED ON THE SAME DAY AS HIS MOTHER IN THE SAME HOUSE.

HIS SECOND WIFE, HOW DID SHE PLAY A ROLE IN HELPING HIM BECOME A WORLD CLASS LEADER?

>> I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING SHE PROVIDED WAS A STABLE BASE FOR HIM.

HE HAD A RATHER MANIC PERSONALITY AT TIMES AND HE WOULD ALWAYS MOVE AND ALWAYS BE ENERGETIC AND FIRING UP AND OFTEN IN FIGHTS.

THE TWO WERE BEST FRIENDS WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG AND AFTER HE RECOVERED FROM DEPRESSION, HE TOO SUFFERED DEPRESSION AFTER THE LOSS OF HIS MOTHER, HE WENT TO THE BADLANDS AND WHEN HE CAME HOME, HE RECONNECTED TO THIS WOMAN WHO HAD BEEN SO CLOSE TO HIM THAT SHE ALWAYS HOPED TO MARRY HIM.

SHE SAID THIS WAS THE ONLY MAN SHE'D EVER LOVED AND SHE WAITED FOR HIM AND THEY HAD AN INCREDIBLY JOYOUS, STABLE MARRIAGE.

WHEN HE CAME HOME TO THE HOUSE WITH HER, SHE WOULD INSIST THAT HE TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS THAN POLITICS.

SHE SAID A WOMAN'S ROLE IN THAT TIME SHE SAID IS TO BE IN THE NEWSPAPERS ONLY TWICE.

WHEN YOU'RE BORN AND WHEN YOU DIE.

SO -- >> NOT EVEN WHEN YOU'RE MARRIED.

>> NOT EVEN WHEN YOU'RE MARRIED.

INTERESTINGLY THOUGH SHE WAS A MORAL FORCE FOR HIM.

SHE WAS A STEADY FORCE FOR HIM.

I THINK HE NEEDED THAT STABILITY AND IS HE REPTY THAT SHE PRO -- SIRENTY -- SERENITY FOR HIM.

>> ELEANOR ROOSEVELT WAS -- HELPED FOUND THE UNITED NATIONS AND ALL THE WORK SHE DID FOR POOR PEOPLE.

TELL -- HOW DID SHE -- FIRST, HOW DID SHE HELP F.D.R.

BECOME THE GREAT BELOVED PRESIDENT THAT HE WAS.

>> ELEANOR WAS HUGE I THINK.

SHE WAS A LEADER IN HER OWN RIGHT.

SO EVEN BEFORE THEY GOT MARRIED, SHE WAS WORKING IN THE SETTLEMENT HOUSE AND SHE TOOK HIM WITH HER TO THE SETTLEMENT HOUSES.

HE HAD NOT SEEN THAT SIDE OF LIFE IN NEW YORK.

THEY BOTH LIVED PRIVILEGED LIVES EVEN THOUGH ELEANOR HAD A MUCH SADDER CHILDHOOD THAN FDR.

HER FATHER WAS AN ALCOHOLIC.

HER MOTHER DIED WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG BUT SOMEHOW SHE WAS ABLE TO FIND HER SENSE OF SELF THROUGH LOVING OTHER PEOPLE.

>> SHE WAS ALSO MADE THROUGH HARDSHIP.

>> WITHOUT A QUESTION, SHE WAS MADE THROUGH HARDSHIP.

AND THEN SHE INTRODUCES HIM TO THAT OTHER SIDE OF LIFE AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THAT POLL TICKS CAN HAVE A MEANING.

NOT JUST MOVING UP ONE LADDER TO ANOTHER BUT YOU CAN DO THINGS WITH IT AND WHEN HE GETS POLIO, IT'S ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT HE HAS ELEANOR TO EXTEND HIS BODY SO WHILE HE'S RECOVERING FROM POLIO, SHE'S TRAVELING AROUND NEW YORK, BRINGING BACK STORIES HE NEEDS TO KNOW.

SPEAKING ON HIS BEHALF.

AND INCREDIBLY, THEN, HE ALSO HAS AN AFFAIR WITH A YOUNG WOMAN NAMED LUCY MERCER AND AT FIRST IT SEEMS IT WILL END THE MARRIAGE BUT THEY AGREE TO STAY FREEDOM TO GO OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE TO IDENTIFIED HER FULFILLMENT SO SHE BECOMES INVOLVED WITH WOMEN FIGHTING FOR CHILD LABOR AND FIGHTING AGAINST MAXIMUM WAGES AND MINIMUM WAGES, TRYING TO GET WORKING WAGES UP AND SHE BECOMES A FORCE SO THAT IF YOU ALWAYS ARGUE WHICH I WOULD THAT A STRONG MINDED LEADER HAS TO HAVE STRONG MINDED PEOPLE INSIDE THE CABINET ARGUING WITH THEM, QUESTIONING THEIR ASSUMPTIONS, ELEANOR ALWAYS QUESTIONED HIS.

HE SAID SHE WAS A WELCOMED THORN IN MY SIDE.

IT'S ELEANOR WHO DECIDES TO HAVE WEEKLY PRESS CONFERENCES WHERE THE RULE IS ONLY FEMALE PROPERTY REPORTERS CAN COME TO ALL OVER THE COUNTRY STUFF IF I PUBLISHERS HIRE THEIR FIRST FEMALE REPORTERS THEY GET THEIR JOBS BECAUSE OF ELEANOR.

SHE INSISTED ON -- THEY HAVE TO ASSIGN A SEPARATE GENERAL WHOSE ONLY TASK WAS TO DEAL WITH ELEANOR ROOSEVELT.

>> HOW MUCH DID THEY SHAPE THE TIMES OR DID THE TIMES SHAPE THEM?

I MEAN, I THINK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE LOOK AT OUR LEADERS THAT ARE OUR GREAT LEADERS, THEY'VE OFTEN SERVED AT A TIME OF CRISIS BECAUSE IT GIVES YOU OPPORTUNITY TO MOBILIZE THE COUNTRY IN THE WAY YOU DON'T IN AN ORDINARY TIME BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT TEMPERMENT AND SKILL TO MAKE USE OF THAT OPPORTUNITY.

RIGHT TEMPERMENT AND SKILL TO MAKE USE OF THAT OPPORTUNITY.

HE JUST WASN'T ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE COUNTRY FALL AGO PART SO IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU'VE GOT A FIT FOR YOUR -- EVEN I WOULD ARGUE THAT JFK WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET STIFFLY RIGHTS BILL THROUGH THE SAME WAY LBJ DID BECAUSE JOHNSON KNEW THE CONGRESS.

KNEW EVERY PERSON THERE.

KNEW THE SENATOR.

AND HE WAS DEEPLY COMMITTED TO GETTING THAT DOMESTIC LEGISLATION THROUGH UNTIL OF COURSE THE WAR CUT HIS LEGACY IN TWO.

>> SO WHERE DO YOU COME OUT ULTIMATELY IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP.

SIT MORE IMPORTANT WHO THE PERSON IS AND THE PERSON KIND OF TAKES OVER.

OR SIT MORE IMPORTANT WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE AND HOW THEY AFFECT THAT PERSON'S POLITICS.

>> I THINK HISTORY SHOWS IT IS MORE IMPORTANT WHERE THE CITIZENS ARE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CHANGES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN OUR COUNTRY, EVEN LINCOLN WOULD SAY WHEN THEY CALLED HIM A LIBERATOR, HE SAID I'M NOT THE LIBERATOR.

THE ANTISLAVERY PEOPLE I DID ALL.

THEY CREATED THE MOMENTUM THAT CREATED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT CREATED THE ACTIVISM THAT WAS UNDERNEATH HIM AND ALLOWED HIM TO MOVE FORWARD THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

CERTAINLY PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT IN THE STREETS CREATED THE POSSIBILITIES FOR BOTH F.D.R.

AND TEDDY ROOSEVELT AND WITHOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOMENT, LYNDON JOHNSON COULD NOT HAVE DONE WHAT HE DID.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE WOMENS MOVEMENT, GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT.

WHEN THERE'S A MOVEMENT OF CITIZENS AND A LEADER OF CITIZEN, THE LEADER NEEDS THE CITIZEN SO THE CITIZENS ARE CENTRAL.

>> AND LIVING IN WASHINGTON D.C. AS I DO, EVERY SPRING TIME, I THINK OF LADY BIRD AND THANK HER FOR ALL THE INCREDIBLE ORNAMENTAL TREES AND BULBS AND FLOWERS.

THEY'RE ALL HERE BECAUSE SHE PLANTED THEM AND -- BUT IS THAT -- AND THAT SEEMS TO BE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT HER LEGACY.

IS THAT FAIR TO HER?

>> SHE DID MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

IN MATERIAL DAYS OF HIS CAREER WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO GET CLOSE TO VARIOUS PEOPLE IN POWER IN WASHINGTON WHETHER IT WAS RICHARD RUSSELL AND SAM RAYBURN, HE WERE BACHELORS AND SHE WOULD ALWAYS HAVE THEM TO HER HOUSE.

ALWAYS HAVE THEM TO HER HOUSE.

THERE WAS STILL SHE WAS VERY LIMITED IN TERMS OF WHAT SHE COULD SHOW PUBLICLY.

>> THAT'S WHAT'S SO WEIRD WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, ELEANOR ROOSEVELT WAS SO WAY OUT IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY ELSE AND YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT SHE CREATED A LANDMARK FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO FOLLOW BUT I REMEMBER SHE TOLD THE STORY LATER THAT SHE SPOKE TO BESS TRUMAN AND ASKED IF SHE WANTED TO BE INTRODUCED TO THE PRESS AND SHE SAID NO.

FIRST LADIES CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT IS A GOOD THING.

WE SHOULD NOT FORCE THEM TO BE INTO ONE FIELD OR ANOTHER BUT IN HE CENT TIMES, THEY'VE ADOPTED A THING THAT THEY DO WHETHER IT'S LITERACY OR SAY NO AND OBVIOUSLY HILLARY WAS A POWERFUL POSITION HARKENING BACK TO ELEANOR.

>> NOW DO YOU THINK THAT HARDSHIP AND FIGURING YOUR WAY OUT OF A TERRIBLE SITUATION CONTRIBUTES TO WOMENS LEADERSHIP IN THE SAME WAY AS IT DOES TO MENS LEADERSHIP?

>> I WOULD THINK PERHAPS EVEN MORE.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S IMPORTANT WHEN YOU GO THROUGH HARDSHIP LIKE FOR F.D.R.

WAS HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE VULNERABLE ABOUT THE POLIO AND LET OTHER PEOPLE SEE WHAT HE WAS GOING THROUGH IN WARM SPRINGS AND HE HELPED OTHER PEOPLE THAT WAY BY THAT FELLOW SENSE OF VULNER VULNERABILITY.

>> BUT HE DIDN'T LET THE PUBLIC KNOW.

>> NO.

I THINK WHAT WOMEN HAVE TO DO THROUGH WORRYING ABOUT FAMILIAR LIPS THROUGH TRYING TO BALANCE FAMILY AND HUSBAND AND WORK IF THEY'RE DOING WORK, MAKES THEM MORE ABLE TO MAYBE I HOPE THIS IS TRUE TO ACKNOWLEDGE MISTAKES AND NOT FEEL LIKE IT'S A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

I THINK SOMETIMES MEN FEEL THAT IT'S A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

I THINK OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT HAS SAID IT'S A SIGN OF WEAKNESS TO ACKNOWLEDGE ERRORS.

IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE.

I MEAN, SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE LEARN FROM THEIR FAILURES AND BECOME BETTER PEOPLE AND I THINK BECAUSE OF THE JUGGLING THAT WOMEN HAVE DONE OVER THE YEARS AND BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN VULNERABLE AND THEY DO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GROW THAT THEY'VE DONE THIS MORE NATURALLY.

THE OTHER THING THAT I WOULD LIKE TO THINK IS DIFFERENT IS EMPATHY.

THE MOST IMPORTANT DWELT I THINK IN A LEADER IS THE ABILITY TO FEEL OTHER PEOPLE'S SITUATION AND UNDERSTAND THEM.

AND WHAT MORE HAPPENS IN A FAMILY SETTING.

NOW IT'S DIFFERENT.

MY SONS ARE AS INVOLVED WITH THEIR CHILDREN AS THEIR WIVES ARE BUT THAT WAS NOT TRUE IN THE OLD DAYS BUT TO HAVE A FAMILY SITUATION WHICH RUNS IN A GOOD WAY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE EMPATHY TOWARD DIFFERENT KIDS AND DIFFERENT KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE CASES OF MY LEADERS, WHEN TEDDY ROOSEVELT GOT AWAY FROM HIS PRIVILEGED BACKGROUND AND WENT INTO THE SLUMS AND WAS POLICE COMMISSIONER IN NEW YORK HE LEARNED AN EMPATHY FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S SITUATION WHEN F.D.R.

GOT HIS POLE LOW HE SAID IT TAUGHT HIM HUMILITY WHEN YOU TAKE TWO YEARS TO MOVE YOUR BIG TOE YOU FEEL MORE HUMBLE THAN OTHERWISE.

SO THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT ALL THIS THAT I WOULD LOVE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT AND STUDY ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES IN WOMEN AND MEN.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP QUALITIES THAT COME OUT OF THAT.

OUT OF EMPATHY.

YOU TALK ABOUT HIM BEING ABLE TO FORGIVE PAST TRANS-GREGSES BY OTHER -- TRANSGRESSIONS.

>> HIS FATHER THOUGHT READING WAS A SIGN OF LAZINESS IN A PHYSICAL CULTURE SO SOMETIMES HE WOULD TAKE HIS BOOKS AWAY AND THEY WERE HIS LIFE LINE.

HE NEEDED TO READ TO IMAGINE ANOTHER LIFE THAN SHUCKING CORN OR SPLITTING RAILS SO HE HAD TO LEAD A SECRET LIFE AND THE MOTHER DIED WHEN HE WAS YOUNG AND NEVER REPAIRED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS FATHER BUT I THINK HE WAS BORN WITH THEM.

THERE WERE KIDS WHO WOULD PUT HOT COALS ON TURTLES TO WATCH THEM WIGGLE AND HE WOULD SAY THEY'RE WRONG.

THEN OF COURSE HIS FAMOUS SECOND ININAUGURAL, LET US BIND UP THE NATION'S WOUNDS, BOTH SIDES HAD SLAVERY.

NEITHER WANTED THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN.

BOTH PRAYED TO THE SAME GOD.

AND THE LAST DAY OF HIS LIFE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT BEING GENTLE TO THE SOUTHERNERS AS LONG AS THE RIGHTS OF THE BLACK AMERICANS COULD BE GUARANTEED, HE WANTED THEM TO GO BACK INTO THEIR LIFE AND COME BACK INTO THE UNION.

>> IT REMINDS ME OF WHAT L.B.J.

SAID ABOUT YOU BECAUSE BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AS A FELLOW, YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE URGING ANOTHER POLITICIAN TO RUN AGAINST HIM AND TAKE HIM OUT AND HE SAID LET'S BRING HER ON ANYWAY.

IF ANYONE CAN CHANGE HER MIND, I CAN TURN HER AROUND.

>> EXACTLY.

THE ARTICLE WAS CALLING FOR BLACKS, WOMEN, AND YOUNG PEOPLE TO FORM A THIRD PARTY TO REMOVE LYNDON JOHNSON FROM POWER [LAUGHTER] >> YEAH.

WELL, HE DID TURN YOU AROUND.

>> CERTAINLY ON HIS PERSON.

DIDN'T CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT THE WAR BUT I SAW HIM IN THE LAST YEARS OF HIS LIFE WHEN HIS GLORY DAYS WERE OVER AND IT'S ONLY NOW THAT I REALIZE WHAT HE DID IN THOSE FIRST 50 YEARS -- 50 YEARS AGO WHEN THEY FINALLY BEGAN CELEBRATING MEDICARE, EDUCATION, VOTING RIGHTS, CIVIL RIGHTS, IMMIGRATION REFORM, NPR, PBS, IT'S INCREDIBLE WHAT HE DID AND HE WAS A FORCE OF NATURE.

>> AND NOW MOST PEOPLE SEE THE PRESIDENT WE HAVE IN OFFICE, I WANT TO TURN FOR THE LAST FEW MINUTES THAT WE HAVE TO DONALD TRUMP AND LEADERSHIP.

HE'S OF COURSE TRYING TO TEAR ALL THOSE INSTITUTIONS APART.

MAINLY THE GOVERNMENT ONES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT DO YOU SEE HIM AS A LEADER?

>> WELL, IF YOU DEFINE LEADERSHIP BY MY FOUR GUYS AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO DO NOW, SHINE A LIGHT ON THE ABSENCE -- I THINK IT'S AN ABSENCE OF LEADERSHIP TODAY.

IS THERE HUMILITY IN HIM?

A CENTRAL QUALITY?

HE SAID HE LOVED POPE FRANCIS SO MUCH BECAUSE HE WAS VERY HUMBLE JUST LIKE HIM.

BUT HUMILITY MEANS ACCEPTING YOUR LIMITATIONS.

HE SAID HE HAD THE BEST TEMPERMENT OF ANYONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE'S ALWAYS WON.

LOSS MAKES YOU WISER AND MAKES YOU A BETTER PERSON IN SOME WAYS.

HE HAS A HARD TIME ACKNOWLEDGING ERROR.

HE THINKS THAT WOULD BECOME A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

HE HAS A TEAM HE'S CREATED THAT CAN ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER WHICH IS MAYBE A GOOD THING BUT WHEN LINCOLN SAW THEM ARGUING WITH EACH OTHER AND THEN TELLING THE PRESS WHAT THEY FELT ABOUT ONE ANOTHER HE SENT THEM A MOMENT SAYING IT WOULD PAIN ME VERY MUCH IF THESE ARGUMENTS GET OUTSIDE.

WHERE TO BE ONE TOGETHER.

SO HE'S ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE TECHNOLOGY OF HIS TIME.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS A LEADER HAS TO DO AND -- >> HE LED I WOULD SAY IN TERMS OF USING TWITTER AND YOU WOULD SAY TECHNOLOGY AS SORT OF A PLATFORM FOR ANNOUNCEMENTS.

BUT IS THAT SUCH A GOOD THING?

I MEAN, IT ALSO IN A WAY CHEAPENS THE PRESIDENCY TO DO THAT.

>> IT CERTAINLY WAS A GOOD THING CAMPAIGNING.

IT ALLOWED HIM TO REACH HIS PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY OF THE FILTER OF THE CABLES, ET CETERA, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN CAMPAIGNING AND GOVERNING AND WHEN YOU'RE GOVERNING, YOU HAVE TO BE UNIFYING THE COUNTRY AND NOT JUST SPEAKING TO YOUR BASE AND SOMETIMES WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES TWEET IT'S TO HIS BASE AND WITHOUT FORE THOUGHT ABE COMES OUT IN THE MIDDLE -- AND COMES OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

HAVE YOU TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL YOUR EMOTIONS.

THAT SHOWS THAT THOSE INSTANTOUS COMMENTS MEANS HE CAN'T CONTROL HIS EMOTIONS.

>> TWO QUESTIONS TO FINISH OFF.

THE FIRST IS DO YOU THINK HILLARY CLINTON HAD LEADERSHIP QUALITIES AND WHAT WERE THEY?

WOULD SHE HAVE BEEN A GREAT LEADER AS PRESIDENT EVEN IF SHE WAS NOT BY MOST PEOPLES', YOU KNOW, THOUGHTS, THE GREATEST CAMPAIGNER IN THE WORLD?

>> I THINK SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN AN EXCELLENT LEADER.

I THINK SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER LEADER THAN CAMPAIGNER.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT SKILLS IN SOME WAYS.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THAT.

IS THE SKILL -- YOU DO NEED WARMth AND EMPATHY BUT I THINK SHE HAD THAT IN SMALLER GROUPS.

IT WAS HARD TORE PROJECT PUBLICLY BUT SHE WAS ORGANIZED, SHE KNEW HOW TO CREATE A TEAM OF PEOPLE.

SHE WAS RESILIENT.

CERTAINLY HAD A LOT OF LOSS HERSELF.

AND SHE COULD COMMUNICATE WHEN SHE NEEDED TO WITH PEOPLE.

I THINK SHE WAS A GOOD LEADER.

WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD LEADER AND IN A DIFFERENT SETTING PERHAPS WHEN BOSSES PICKED THE LEADERS.

IF YOU HAD WOMEN BOSSES PICKING LEADERS, SHE MIGHT HAVE BECOME THE PRESIDENT OR THE PRESIDENT ANYWAY.

>> ANYTHING YOU CAN TAKE FROM HISTORY TO CLUE US INTO HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE BEFORE WE HAVE A FEMALE PRESIDENT?

>> I REALLY THINK IT'S GOING TO BE QUICK.

I THINK THE MOST ENCOURAGING THING RIGHT NOW EVEN IF WE PREVENT OURSELVES FROM THINKING ABOUT THAT LEVEL OF THE PRESIDENCY IS MORE AND MORE WOMEN ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE THAN EVER BEFORE BREAKING RECORD NUMBERS.

THEY'RE COMING FROM DIFFERENT KINDS OF FIELDS, TEACHERS, MEDICAL DOCTORS, AND THAT'S IT.

YOU'VE JUST GOT TO HAVE THAT ACTIVISM WHERE MORE PEOPLE ENTER THE PLACE EARLY ON SO THEY BECOME ACTIVE IN POLITICS AND I WAS ON JOHN STEWART THE NIGHT THAT HILLARY GAVE HER ACCEPTANCE SPEECH AND I MADE THIS PREDICTION THINKING SHE WAS GOING TO WORK AND I SAID MAYBE WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER 45 PRESIDENTS THAT ARE WOMEN AND SOMEDAY A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW A LITTLE BOY WILL SAY MOMMY CAN I EVER BE PRESIDENT?

NO REASON TO THINK -- SUPPOSE WE WET ONE BOMB.

WHY NOT -- GET ONE WOMAN.

WHY NOT A BUNCH OF WOMEN AFTER THAT?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WISDOM AND INCREDIBLE RESEARCH AND YOUR SHARING OF THIS GREAT INFORMATION.

>> GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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